ship analysis

[peace of love]

after shortly browsing the new ship list the following fell in my eyes. maybe some things should be changed.
i didnt search for problems so there might be some more - POST THEM HERE to be dicussed too...

(i, admin, will post the corrections in red)
me,peace, have just few remarks in deep blue


- minor/ major reconstructor: still havent found the hint that the minor rec. isnt reconstructed by the major reconstructor.
- corrected

- holo fleet carrier:
a) there are at least two typos in the description.
- corrected
b)it should not be affected by the cyclops.
c) well i think it wasnt that worthy last round so maybe improve it...
whats with b) and c) ??

- commando fighter: too cheap , no other ship gives 400ap for 5mp (in a small fighter fleet with 800 fighters & 1 commandofighter.
my suggestion: all c-fighters will selfdestruct after battle + has no shot + costs 10 mp. i think it will leave a still very very good ship after that changes.
- changed to 10 MP but, what do you mean? it already has sd. and destroys all other c-fighters
well assuming the c-fighter will act in the middle of the battle with that (not too big 800 fighter fleet i ll get an additional 400ap for lousy 5(now 10) mp. thats darn too good i think. the not shooting will change nearly nothing but in addition to that and to costing 10mp it should selfdestruct after the battle (i mean the PENGUIN-"ability") in ANY case.

-graze reactor: too cheap. advanced class2 fleets are not build of destroyers only so it will most surely let out all grazes against fleets containing eagles, m-l,s-g and other stuff - making it less worth to build other ship then destroyers
- no

-disable ship: let it disable more. at the moment its only for use against m-l and helps to use the warcruiser...
- will be against one ship of each race, but which?
good idea

- plasma emitter: i think the "plasma emitter bug" should be fixed to make this ship useful except for this one special base defense strategy which doesnt bring the game forward...
- fixed

i like many of the new ship, but they are hard to analyze adhoc. maybe the shiptesters can state more ???

if you have comments to the above or other possible probs just post them here...

maybe admins can state their opinion too??
- i did

peace,

peace

[ This Message was edited by: admin on 2002-09-04 04:17 ]

[ This Message was edited by: peace of love on 2002-09-05 00:14 ]

[Dougster]

I have little experience with the reconstructors, but in testing I did I think get minor reconstructed by a major once or twice, but warcruisers stop that happening!!

#Holo fleet . Havent tried it yet, but fighting against em last round didnt seem to be much trouble.

#Commando, well they do self destruct (all of em) and you never know when they are gonna work, so to get the most firepower you actually need to build quite a few.

#Disable ship, yeah, I have been using one and it has worked most times. But the one drawback is that missiles can fire before it works, however it does stop quite a few I think. Maybe it should disable jammers as well. The funny thing is the battle message says disable ship disables ALL missiles etc, when the fact is it only does that if it gets first shot.

#Graze Reactors. In the first few I built lots of these and the #particle thrusters and lost lots of points, not sure how to use em at this point.

#Plasma Emitters, One of the testers built 500 for one fleet, the class 2 battle was a nil all draw, but I shot his ms. This ship is too complicated for my little brain.

# Spectres Deadly but hard to use (mini dooms)
and dont seem to be in the right class to me. I think there may be one or two bugs still in this one at this point.

#Pirate Flagship, and Plague ship, are both ships that affect the next battle, and so cant be tested as the test method does not allow for ships to be destroyed, ie you get the battle report but the fleets remain the same, so your second battle with another fleet, is the same fleet as your first battle with the first fleet.

#Apollo Cruiser (formerly the Funnel Web) doesnt seem to be working as it should in my experience, but I cant build em, only shoot em.
#Sporator, works but I dont have an opinion cant quite figure it all out-:see plasma emitter. It affects the apollo which I dont like it doing

#Retreat Fighter, great idea, but again cant really be tested cos of the battle fleet stuff I mentioned earlier.

#Flying saucers/Scouts, not really for battle, but quite cool, I thing the saucers could maybe have a little more lp.

#Defensive array, Cool, but will make attacking planets somewhat more complicated, lol.

#Dreadnaught a great ship, kind of expensive, but nevertheless works well, could perhaps have a little more firepower.
:note, in spite of randomness of battles defensive arrays seem to love this ship

There are plenty of others, but I cant really comment on em yet, except that the natal had major problems.

[ This Message was edited by: Dougster on 2002-09-05 01:24 ]

[peace of love]

at admin:

the editing was a good idea...i replied some in my post...


what do you think about dougsters entry?

[admin]

the apollo cruiser works fine, (with the sporater on the other side as an opponent ship).
i chatted with dougster and it seems all ships work the way like they supposed to do now.

pirate ship works too now but we still have to program the function that the ships of the plague ship stay in the fleet after the battle

maybe we have to modify the Flying saucers a bit - will need some more testing

[spacetrace]

i think the sabotage fighter is too cheap.

it should cost 2 mp

or

3 mp 2 damage


[ This Message was edited by: spacetrace on 2002-09-05 14:03 ]

[Dougster]

No this is not a good idea. I't be just another mine deployer then.

Its only effective in certain circumstances anyway.

And you only just brought the price down!!!

And It think the command should still be 5 cos you need to build up to ten for any certainty they will effect a large enough bunch of ships. Dont you??

[ This Message was edited by: Dougster on 2002-09-05 14:09 ]

[spacetrace]

commando fighter: maybe seven is ok

@doug: i corrected my post

[ This Message was edited by: spacetrace on 2002-09-05 14:11 ]

[Dougster]

nah 1mp 1ap is perfect.

If it aint broke dont fix it.

@Admin. I am sure you know at least someone who uses at least 10 commandoes as a matter of course.
Btw sorry bout the colors I just figured out how to use em the easy way.

[ This Message was edited by: Dougster on 2002-09-05 15:01 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Dougster on 2002-09-05 15:01 ]

[spacetrace]

and i know at least one who was using 9 commandofighters

[peace of love]

as far as i lerned my statistic lessons and school :

1000 fighter enhanced with x commandiofighters:

x=... additional damage (to be expected)

0 0 (0mp = 0ap/1mp)
1 501 (5mp = 100ap/1mp)
2 668 (10 mp = 66ap/1mp)
3 751 (15 mp = 50ap/1mp)
4 801 (20 mp = 40ap/1mp)

to be compared:
fighter (1ap/1mp)
destroyer (1.2ap/1mp)
cruiser (1.67 ap/mp)


even worse with kamikazis:

0 0 (0mp =0ap/1mp)
1 5827 (5mp = 1165ap/1mp)
2 7770 (10mp = 777ap/1mp)
3 8750 (15mp =583ap/1mp)
...
10 10490 (50mp=210 ap/1mp)

even if you calculate the risk of losing some c-cruiser due to kamikaziaction or counterfire (that calculation is too hard for me now ) the c-fighter is giving a godlike ap/mp-ratio.


but i think the clear result is seen in the first table compared with the ratio of the fighter,destroyer and cruiser....

[spacetrace]

we leave it at 10 mp

i will not look for my pocket calculator, so i hope you forgot not to remember that the kamikaze will destroy 2 other ships...

[admin]

how about this:
the sabotage fighter stays like it is but additionally 5 sabotage fighters destroy one fighter


[ This Message was edited by: admin on 2002-09-05 18:52 ]

[Lord Philemon]

Actually I don't mind; I think the sabotage fighter is quite good like it is. And I don't think this change would make me use the it more or less than before. (btw: I'd like to know which syntax you use for letting 5 sabotage destroy 1 fighter... mod,self,1,2,all,+,0,-0.2,...?)

concerning the c-fighter: I always use 20

and @peace:(1.2ap/1mp) for destroyers? (1.67 ap/mp) for cruisers? I think the c-fighter only affects class 1, doesn't it.

[ This Message was edited by: Lord Philemon on 2002-09-05 21:45 ]

[SirTaz]

ships (A/D) (M/P)

class 1

fighters (1/1) 1 mp reg.

interceptors (0/1) 1 mp reg.

sporators (0/1) 5 mp this ships help the other side in battle think it needs to be relooked at.

emp-fighters (0/1) 1 mp reg.

mine-deployer (0/1) 5 mp reg.

sabotage fighters (0/1) 1 mp I said this back when i got it off the tech. planet i have to agree this ships cost needs to be moved to 2 mp's in the test i saw of this ship when in large numbers its a deadly ship.

class 2

destroyers (10/10) 8 mp reg.

eagles (2/10) 4 mp great mp cost and a nice defenseve ship.

graze reactors (0/10) 30 mp 7/10 ap I think some class 1,2 and some class 3's are going to fine trouble when they run into a fleet of these.

wasps (1/10) 11 mp nice ship but a fleet could do well with more then one in it.

particle thrusters (10/100) 55 mp nice ship I'm sure theres great thing still to be seen out of it yet.

multi-emp-vessels (0/10) 14 mp very nice ship first time trying it but i like what it does.

c-cannon-modules (0/4) 20 mp I'l played these befor and testing them there a lot better then i thought of them befor sweet nanite ship

troikas (0/10) 16 mp reg.

missile-launchers (0/10) 10 mp good ship work well for removing cruisers

plasma emitter (0/10) 10 mp in the right fleet set up this ship can come in handy.

class 3

cruisers (100/100) 60 mp reg.

apollo cruiser (0/100) 100 mp I've not found how to use it yet so not sure how to rate it yet.

cyclopses (0/100) 120 mp sent the ship only kills 100 class 1 ship the cost should be 100 mp or have it kill 120 class 1's to match the mp cost.

minor reconstructors (0/100) 100 mp good ship does it job well

c-cannon-platforms (10/50) mp reg.

cluster-cruisers (0/60)mp reg.

jammers (0/0) 4 mp love this added on ship does it job well but I hate to say it but the cost on this my be to low maybe 8 mp be better

class 4

motherships (0/1000) 320 mp reg.

core drivers (0/250) 80 mp the lower cost now should see this Ms used more .

major reconstructors (0/150) 550 mp great ship my first time useing it but it does its job

plague ships (0/0) 1500 mp Hum hard to say much about this ship i tryed it once didn't seem to work in the way i used it in a fleet/

carriers (0/100) 600 mp to me this ships should release 300 nano bombs after reading the nano bomber mp cost is 2mp

@the nanite race, once they have there research done, on the other races they get to research and mixs these ships with the nanite race ships and reg's.ships these fleets set ups there going to be hard to make big points off of them LoL had a battle that both fleets lost good number of ships and only -74 in points was lost I see great things to come off of all the planet races that now get to mix other race ship in there fleet once the research gets done.


[ This Message was edited by: SirTaz on 2002-09-05 22:46 ]

[admin]

the cyclopses are destroying the class 1 ships from out of the class 3 so you dont loose it in any case and wining 100 points is a good thing.


i think the jammers should cost 20MP
or maybe we should quit it completely, i dont like the idea - it makes deep scan probes useless if you plan on a class 3 fight

and the plague ship is still not functioning, i think tomorrow we will finish it

[Dougster]

Hmm, well all the mp ap things can get a bit too complicated (for me), but one bounty and one fighter can kill any ship 50/50 regardless of its lp, so I dont know how you would calculate that.

But I think with any ships lp or expense you also have to take in its versatility. Fighters can fight just about anything.Ok not always well, but most times. Ceptors and sab fighter are only good for one thing. So their effectiveness is also balanced by their lack of versatility.

I am of the opinion, that you shouldn't be regularly changing the cost of ships until you have some sort of agreement that they are either too cheap or too expensive.

#cyclops, I had a look at the battle syntax, and it has an great advantage over the apollo, due to the sporator affecting classes one and two, but only affecting the destructive capabilities of the apollo.

So is the cyclops too cheap, the apollo too expensive, or the sporator way too cheap??

I think if the apollo stays as is it should be 60mp, In many tests when a sporator was active, it only destroyed one ship, whereas the cyclops will always destroy 100 if there is 100 to destroy.

Are missiles expensive, or really good value?
Their ap is not really relevent, cos they have other attributes. (cruisers shoot at missiles). And they can save your ms if you have no class 3 ships in your fleet.

And back to commandoes, they are only effective, if the enemies class one has been removed, ok, I know I am belabouring the obvious, but I have a feeling that will be much harder to do this round

[admin]

y<es, the apollo cruiser is a bit too weak, i think 60 MP is ok

and missiles have no MP (otherwise you would loose points for every missile although no MP was destroyed like the natal cruiser)

[spacetrace]

@@doug: i think you are right. there is no mathematic key for caculating the ship-mp. this game is moderated by humans and so we need to trust feelings about ships and their meaning for the game. the commando-fighter was always a ship that wasn't used in large numbers (i saw 5 or some more).. so i never thought it's too cheap.
but with 10 mp it's good enough; but maybe we shift the game to more defensive play ... i am not sure.

i have some more thoughts about that:
- the mp-value of the commando-fighter is not so important for itself, as it is a support ship for: fighter, kamikaze, intruder, penguin... So ... the mp of the commando-fighter will change the usage of these ships.
if these ships are too strong (in average) the whole dang can be balanced by downgrading the commando-fighter...

-> the value of a ship is depending on the ships you can combine with it -> mp is not calculataeble (not now)
in the end the moderators must decide, the more ships there are the more complex is the situation, but...

we need to establish a stable base of ships that are balanced...
upon this base we can decide for more ships.
( what i wanna say is, we should leave those old ships as they are and should change them only in case of emergency)

....


i think the sporator is good too... it modifies both players ships.

[ This Message was edited by: spacetrace on 2002-09-06 12:27 ]

[SirTaz]

6594 nano viruses (0/1) where did this ship come from I don't see it in my ships list and what planet race has it, is it the nanites and how much does its mp cost for this is the most mp i've seen a planet race have.
==============================================
425 cybrid III (10/10) same here what planet race has this ship and whats its mp cost?I can't fine it in my manual of the ships, It sure seems to be a strong ships

[Dougster]

Tazz, the nano virus, is the 'Plague' that is released by the Plague ship. It is simply the mechanism that the ship uses to destroy the enemy, so it is not like an interceptor/nano bomber that is another ship that can be researched.

The Cybrids 1,2,and 3 are ships that were in round 2 but dropped from the last round because of bugs I think. They start out as a sort of eagle, that costs a bit more, and increase their ap after each battle, gradually increasing to the ap of a destroyer. I dont know whether they will be in the next round or not. You might find some other mystery ships like that I guess.