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Shade's A Cheat and a Multi (part 2) Robertroy's an a*s
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Mighty
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:30 pm    Post subject: Shade's A Cheat and a Multi (part 2) Robertroy's an a*s
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SpaceModerator AKA robert roy just closed the topic about Shade his alliance leader and the multi!

please remove his power. thank you


there is more than enough facts in that topic to warrant it to be discussed. TO is just trying to shut it down

facts can only be discussed if the forum is open and all multi forums have gone on for pages.. so no reason to change the rules for shade the multi! oh wait, he's his boss! so desperate

open the topic back up
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Last edited by Mighty on Tue May 20, 2008 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:35 pm    Post subject:
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i thought robertroy was the one who provided you with evidence for shades multying why would he close the topic

you speak in riddles mighty
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Noxus
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:35 pm    Post subject:
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If i had mod powers, your account would be banned by now. And im not on -TO-...

what do you got to say about that?
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Mighty
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject:
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I'd say your an idiot

and robertroy provided me with evidence 2 years ago without knowing it'll come back and hit in the ass
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject:
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My opinion is to stop all posting now and wait for admins wise words on the IP's, just wait till admin says yes or no.
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:51 pm    Post subject:
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Well i give what really happened. I was about to post on Mighty's Flamer topic but it was closed just as i pushed the post button... but with al12's post in that topic i totally agree with him.

1. Having the same ip addy only means someone from the same computer access that account. who did what?

2. The ip address sticks out of the ordinary. look at that one compared to the others.. it doesn't belong. Also where are the rest of RickyT's ips? i HIGHLY doubt that is all he has. Just 2. All dynamic ips kick off a different last 3 digit ip almost every day.

3. this is probably some sick and twisted plot from you Mighty. you probably hacked 2pac's password and got into his account on a proxy in or around Shade's town. Then with RickyT's multy chain (created by you over the past couple of rounds) accessed the SAME PROXY and have Shade pinned. Excellent work mighty.

Not to metion Shade was hacked before by you. Just look at Judgement day forum. So your the pretty guilty one here.
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Please remove RobertRoy's mod powers
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Mighty wrote:
SpaceModerator AKA robert roy just closed the topic about Shade his alliance leader and the multi!

please remove his power. thank you


there is more than enough facts in that topic to warrant it to be discussed. TO is just trying to shut it down

facts can only be discussed if the forum is open and all multi forums have gone on for pages.. so no reason to change the rules for shade the multi! oh wait, he's his boss! so desperate

open the topic back up



Why? I think there was every reason to close the thread too much bashing going on.
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Mighty
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject:
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SO I got Zenachi to ask admin to check on the multi accounts

I got linux to find out that Shade is from denmark!

in other words I must be zenachi and linux

now since the ip in question is not a proxy (tests false) I must be Shade!

all the other ips originate from the same exact place.. run the locator before you ask.
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject:
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it is too much work to find out all the ips

cant you sort that out between yourselves?
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 10:38 pm    Post subject:
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I sent you a copy of the 2 ip`s you can just check your msg in zachari`s post and the one you sent to me and see that he is multing for your self.
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject:
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admin wrote:
it is too much work to find out all the ips

cant you sort that out between yourselves?


Admin, how can this be accomplished, if all the facts were laid in front of everyone, they(TO) were the only ones that had anything to gain out of that crappy move, their flag back!!! I mean, acusing NS of sending those startup fleets against ourselves!!!...it has to be one of the stupidest things i've heard in my life!!! i stopped posting in the forum cause it's hopeless to argue with people that pose those kinds of arguements...after all, he who did something wrong, is not gonna say he did
i don't care about the 'feud' between shade and mighty, not my problem, what i do care is that, that kind of dirty triks(cheating) doens't go unpunnished, and TO's don't come with your excuses, i was there the whole time, the whole night, everything that happened i saw it real time, sent messages, posted in the forum...so plz, spare me of more childish excuses...
Admin, if there are guys multying to harvest points, so they can be on the top of the score list...so be it, they're not hurting anybody else...but if they are to create accounts so they can have an unfair advantage, in a battle/war between players/alliances...then i say no...a line as to be drawn, and just because some players are egomaniacs, doesn't mean they can cross it!!
ppl should be responsible for their actions...
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:06 pm    Post subject:
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Well all of TO is convinced Mighty did it to frame Shade. Its the best way to do it also
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 Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:42 pm    Post subject:
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I didn't get to mention this in the other topic before it was locked, but all the IPs that were from Shade were similar with the exception of the multi IP.

Now, the only way this could happen is with a proxy, if he didn't cheat. So if all of TO is convinced Mighty cheated, then where would we get a proxy that can imitate that same location?

Seriously... if this was Mighty's vendetta, this is a really complicated and thought out process.
First of all, Mighty would have to hunt down Shade's exact location, city and country, and it looks like Shade only mentioned the country before.
Second, Mighty would have to find an IP proxy that would give him the same IP, when he hacks Shade's account and makes the other accounts.

Now, I'm going to disprove this theory... with one simple question. Shade was online already, and for a long time during TO's attempt to recapture the flag, so how could Mighty hack and log into his account, look around and find out where our flag was held, all at the same time, without Shade noticing something going on with his account?
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 Post Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:50 am    Post subject:
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zenachi wrote:
I didn't get to mention this in the other topic before it was locked, but all the IPs that were from Shade were similar with the exception of the multi IP.

Now, the only way this could happen is with a proxy, if he didn't cheat. So if all of TO is convinced Mighty cheated, then where would we get a proxy that can imitate that same location?

Seriously... if this was Mighty's vendetta, this is a really complicated and thought out process.
First of all, Mighty would have to hunt down Shade's exact location, city and country, and it looks like Shade only mentioned the country before.
Second, Mighty would have to find an IP proxy that would give him the same IP, when he hacks Shade's account and makes the other accounts.

Now, I'm going to disprove this theory... with one simple question. Shade was online already, and for a long time during TO's attempt to recapture the flag, so how could Mighty hack and log into his account, look around and find out where our flag was held, all at the same time, without Shade noticing something going on with his account?


i knew Shade lived in Denmark. Also if you go to Judgement Day has Come forum topic you could ip search where shade's ip address comes from. then to get the proxy... hmm.. duh, www.google.com. simply type in "Proxies in Aarhus" and presto, you got shade.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS273&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Proxy+in+Aarhus&spell=1

not to mention the fact of Judgement Day. Mighty has some pretty amazing internet skills. so im pretty sure he could find another way besides Proxies to help his case.

Robert Roy wrote:
Dear friends from SpaceTrace. Judgement Day has come....

The problem
It started around june 22th. at first I noticed I was missing out messages in the message bar. I was lucky to have the habit of checking the messages link through the com screen but I was allready suspicious.
I talked to Chris, and we decided to all change our passwords. One of us also noticed that the enemie (PFIU) were familiar with our attack code.

We just hoped TO wasn't discredited with a spy, but the other explanation (somebody hacking us) also wasn't a fun idea to think about.

Solving the problem
So we concluded there was only one way to sort this out in a decent way. It was to ask the admin for IP-scans and search through them.
I asked the usernames of most TO players, all members from PFIU and two people wearing the name guak (Those are suspected multies and we thought it was nice to catch those in the same blow.)

We received quite a list, and we started to sort them together and to see where which trail was leading.
About one week before I went on holiday, I was almost done. I just needed the admin to track some IP-adresses down to the location they belong to for the final clues. I left without getting it, and now I am back for a few days and still didn't receive a thing.

Too bad, well then just do it this way.


The Outcome
These are the usernames I asked for:

Jingle96, Frilla, Tyco, Stander, Entitie, Tcp, Uk, Menazuuo, Ffecnte, Guak, Nonton4, Imperial, Wesson45, Animal311, Jigiman, Noxus, Shackles, Kamekaze6, Runehq, Berttone, Picky, Windtalker, Macdonnalds, Ningterc, Saratje, Butcher, Messiah, Wambat11, Waikiki, Eratifig

I got a list of IP-adresses, and this is what is our proof:

Members of -TO-

On Connor:
- 83.117.222.73 is Connor
- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty
( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )

On Spyder:
- 58.84.127.239 , 58.84.86.1 , 58.84.110.97 , 58.84.125.201 , 58.84.122.162 , 58.84.122.81 , 58.84.95.82 , 58.84.106.174 , 58.84.85.222 , 58.84.93.108 , 58.84.90.40 , 58.84.125.90 , 58.84.109.136 , 58.84.81.240 , 58.84.92.172 , 58.84.106.244 , 58.84.120.125 , 58.84.109.244 are from Spyder himself. This 58 is typical for an Australian adress so these are from Spyder.
- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )


On Achilles:
- 67.53.187.208 , 67.53.158.14 , 65.30.221.166 , 66.222.64.217 , 70.217.102.208 , 67.53.158.109 are from Achilles himself.( Location needed )
- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )
- 207.250.40.21 is unknown.. ( Location needed )

On Chris:
- 86.52.35.110 from Chris en Sola. They live together so that explains enough.
- 83.90.100.46 is from Chris his work.
- 69.198.135.244 is unknown. It is also found on: Shadow of Smoke, Jigiman, Mighty, ducky, Corleone ( Location needed)
- 86.52.105.62 is from Chris
- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )


On Sola:
- 86.52.35.110 from Chris en Sola. They live together so that explains enough.


On Shackles:
- 194.204.108.16 , 194.204.127.207 , 194.204.127.109 , 194.204.108.22 , 194.204.114.121 , 194.204.114.243 , 194.204.127.170 , 195.158.122.200 , 194.204.108.102 , 194.204.114.146 , 194.204.127.80 , 194.204.114.152 , 194.204.127.219 , 194.204.114.235. These are from Malta
- 212.56.128.21 is unknown ( Location needed)
- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )



Members from PFIU

---- Moses his accounts are I AM THE ONE and Lil Shadey
IP's on I AM THE ONE: 66.38.192.219 , 66.38.192.134 , 69.196.161.38 , 64.12.117.13 , 152.163.101.13 , 205.188.116.71
IP's on Lil Shadey: 64.12.117.13 , 205.188.116.71 , 152.163.101.13 , 152.163.100.70

- 64.12.117.13 is on both
- 205.188.116.71 is on both.
- 152.163.101.13is on both.
- 152.163.100.70 is on Lil Shadey.
- 66.38.192.219 is on Sacharia, Tramp en I AM THE ONE. ( Location needed )
- 66.38.192.134 is on I AM THE ONE en Tramp. ( Location needed)
- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )
- 64.12.117.13 is on both.


---- T2 his accounts are Tramp en Sacharia.
IP's on Tramp: 209.71.221.224 , 69.196.161.38 , 209.71.221.151 , 64.6.202.226 , 66.38.192.134 , 209.71.221.197 , 209.71.221.240 , 216.106.106.129 , 66.38.192.219 , 209.71.221.77 , 64.6.202.217 , 209.71.221.170 , 216.106.106.181 , 209.71.221.202 , 216.106.106.154 , 209.71.221.66 , 209.71.221.88
IP's on Sacharia: 66.38.192.219 , 209.71.221.224

- 66.38.192.219 is on Tramp, Sacharia en I AM THE ONE. ( Locatie )
- 209.71.221.224 is on both.
- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )
- 66.38.192.134 is on Tramp en I AM THE ONE.
- The others are just on Tramp.


---- Talking Cow and waikiki
IP's on Talking Cow: 69.196.161.38 , 80.61.218.7 , 193.242.117.18 , 217.121.206.134
IP's on waikiki: 217.121.206.134

- 217.121.206.134 is on both. They are the same player. But Talking cow is inactive so we can conclude he started a new account.
- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )
- The others are just on Talking cow.



---- Istefa.
His IP's: 69.196.161.38 , 169.204.52.48 , 207.200.116.138 , 169.204.52.50

- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )
- The others are just found on Istefa.



---- Evans:
His IP's: 88.106.64.49 , 88.106.69.44

Both are only found on him, so no problems here.



---- Blade Edge:
His IP's: 64.149.235 . 242,75.6.38.158 , 69.196.161.38 , 71.137.228.10 , 75.5.29.221 , 75.11.98.151, 71.137.228.42 , 75.0.104.41 , 71.137.227.19 , 71.131.151.112 , 71.147.0.226 , 75.0.105.88 , 71.143.151.88 , 70.37.151.109 , 71.156.73.86 , 71.119.194.30 , 163.150.137.68

- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )
- 163.150.137.68 is found on Blade Edge and Jack O' Shadow. ( Location needed )
- The others were just found on Blade Edge.


--- Jack O' Shadow:
His IP's: 63.43.22.99 , 69.196.161.38 , 163.150.137.68

- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )
- 163.150.137.68 is found on Blade Edge and Jack O' Shadow. ( Location needed )
- 63.43.22.99 is just found on Jack O' Shadow



---- Jigiman
His IP's: 69.198.135.244 , 74.56.242.74 , 69.196.161.38

- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )
- 69.198.135.244 is also found on: Mighty, Shadow of the smoke, ducky, Chris and Corleone
- 74.56.242.74 is found on Jigiman and Mighty.


--- Corleone.
His IP's are: 69.198.135.244 , 66.215.128.170 , 24.182.49.227 , 66.224.113.254 , 64.149.157.11 , 69.109.5.236 , 70.142.21.46 , 69.109.8.214


- 69.198.135.244 is also found on: Mighty, Shadow of the smoke, ducky, Chris and Jigiman.
- All others were only found on Corleone.


--- Shroud
berttone The Shroud The Fog en 1151467609NAV http:// Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0; yplus 4.1.00b) 5797 70.128.47.123 , 69.152.44.49 , 69.196.161.38 , 70.248.66.222 , 70.252.86.111 , 70.247.72.185 , 69.154.61.125 , 70.233.102.163 , 69.155.12.136 , 70.252.87.185 , 69.153.226.223 , 162.39.128.161 , 69.155.123.164 , 70.128.59.40 , 70.252.92.40 , 70.249.187.43 , 69.151.127.232 , 70.128.58.224

- 69.196.161.38 is found on Shroud and Mighty.
- The rest is just found on Shroud.


--- Shadow of the smoke
frilla A Shadow the Smoke en 1151474473NAV http:// Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322) 3597 71.124.41.20 , 71.124.104.7 , 72.69.112.252 , 71.124.120.44 , 71.124.36.240, 69.198.135.244 , 71.124.122.55 , 71.124.117.37 , 71.124.119.157 , 71.124.33.137 , 71.124.117.188 , 71.124.119.28 , 71.124.115.146 , 69.196.161.38 , 71.124.45.224 , 71.124.38.50 , 71.124.118.171 , 71.124.111.215

- 71.124.104.7 , 72.69.112.252 , 71.124.120.44 , 71.124.122.55 , 71.124.117.37 , 71.124.118.171 , 71.124.111.215 were found on Shadow of the smoke.
- 69.198.135.244 was found on Shadow, Guak69, Jigiman, Mighty, ducky and Shade. (Location needed.)
- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty.
- The rest is found on Shadow and Scolar.


--- Scolar
noxus Scolar Visari Helghast Empire en 1151479801NAV Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322) 14814 71.124.41.20 , 71.124.36.240 , 71.124.127.179 , 71.124.123.146 , 71.124.126.101 , 69.196.161.38 , 71.124.119.157 , 71.124.33.137 , 71.124.117.188 , 71.124.119.28 , 71.124.115.146 , 72.69.110.12 , 71.124.45.224 , 71.124.38.50 , 71.124.104.136 , 71.124.33.124 , 71.124.124.236 , 71.124.40.18

- 71.124.36.240 , 71.124.127.179 , 71.124.123.146 , 71.124.126.101 , 71.124.115.146 , 72.69.110.12 , 71.124.104.136 , 71.124.33.124 , 71.124.124.236 , 71.124.40.18 were just found on Scolar.
- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty.
- The rest is found on Scolar and Shroud.


---- Ducky
His IP's: 69.198.135.244 , 69.196.161.38

- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )
- 69.198.135.244 is also found on: Mighty, Shadow of the smoke, Corleone, Chris and Jigiman.



--- Mighty himself.
His IP's: 69.198.135.244 , 74.56.242.74 , 69.196.161.38


- 69.196.161.38 is from Mighty ( gw03.slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com )
- 69.198.135.244 is also found on: ducky, Shadow of the smoke, Corleone, Chris and Jigiman.
- 74.56.242.74 is just found on Mighty and Jigiman.


===========================================

Accusation
This Canadian guy seems not to be T2 or Moses, so that leaves one suspect: Mighty.
Our so-called God seems to have logged on to six accounts of Total Ownage, he had access to all PFIU members and probably seems to be the owner of the guak-multie accounts.

We aren't fully done yet. We have proof here that Moses and T2 have shared accounts, and we want to know which of those two accessed the account of the other.

Finally we can also state that the accounts of Shadow of the smoke and Scolar have had the same IP's. Are these an old and a new one (And both logged on at the same day as happened during that loophole switching or is there real multing going on?


Too bad our Mighty left the game for a while so he can't be called forward to confirm his name is Roger. But the IP was traced this close from Dusseldorf, through New York and Toronto right into Canada.


This can be seen as clear evidence of cheating. And then we haven't even mentioned that so called tactic of loopholes. However constantly called a tactic from the side of PFIU, if an admin says it is considered cheating, it simply is.

Thus we have the vast majority of PFIU accused of multing or helping others to multi by offering their password.



READ THROUGH this zenachi and linux666. I once believed in Mighty before. He is willing to do anything to get his way. Don't make the same mistake i once made.
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zenachi
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 Post Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:19 am    Post subject:
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I've read that before... unfortunately I wasn't around back then so I lack a certain perspective. I've researched a bit and I've noted several different viewpoints on the matter though, but I can't comment on that time...

I'd like to approach this matter separately from the past if possible...
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 Post Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:36 pm    Post subject:
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Mighty whats your problem?Father didnt give you the attention you need it?I liked you way better when you was hit by a bus-hope it was double decker-thank god for english creativity.

For what is worth we would get that flag with or without that fleet.We had over 15k MP on its way there.We had more than enough to take back what is ours and even little bit extra to take what is yours.There wasnt any need to create that account.If it was created from a member of TO than that member acted alone and his not worthy of TO tags.
TO is good becouse poeple in it know how to do their job properly.There isnt any nOOb in it.Noob I say couse noob is someone who wont listen and do what he is told not newbie or bad player.
Why they win wars,couse all listen and obey orders.Becouse their spirit isnt broken easy(well this is just a theory that TO spirit can be broken,some say that this is something that cant happen at all).And the most important thing is leader.The man who is reason people group in things like TO.The man you Mighty will never be and what you always wanted to be.Hence your grudge against Shade.All your "alliance"were around just couse poeple hated Shades arrogance and wanted to fight TO.Well actually hole your smelly ST carrier exists just becouse TO is around....
Mah I dont give an rats ass what you say.Even if by some remote chance Shade did that multi account Im still glad I know him couse hes OK guy something you are not nor will ever be...

....whatever...
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steven1982
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 Post Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject:
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Can anybody remove Mighty from the forum?

He's not even playing the game so what's his bussiness here anyway. If you accuse someone that's your right but complaining about it in every topic you see fit is annoying.
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Mighty
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 Post Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject:
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Not if the original topic is closed!

you are all being extremely stupid! none of you has any facts and yet you try to defend a guy who's as dirty as the back of a garbage truck.

so I'm going to ignore all of you To's and ex To's, including nexus and I'm going to give some answers to questions

Zen, I could not have peroxided. the ip in question is not a proxy.

you can check if an ip is a proxy or not at
http://www.geobytes.com/iplocator.htm
or
http://www.ip-adress.com/Proxy_Checker/

Result: Proxy: false
Proxy Format is not valid!
You entered an IP address (85.82.157.191) and no Port.

and also all those other ip's (the 62's) come from his work, it might be possible to find a proxy in the same city, but the same exact house? impossible. jus do the check in http://www.ip-adress.com/ipaddresstolocation/ and look at the map, you'll see the ips all come from the exact same location. none are proxies.

check noxus post.. look at chiris's ip from a year ago, the one rob gave us (86.52.35.110) . put in his ip into http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm?GetLocation and you get



thats from a year ago. notice the lattitude and longtitude which pinpoint his exact location to 56.1500 and 10.2170 (gps location)

now lets do the same for the new ip from ricky and 2pac, we get


that is the exact same longitude and latitude, which means the exact same location.


now as for his work ips (the 62 ip's) his work has worked on there security from last year and made there ip's variable, resulting in so many ips and also making it hard to pinpoint the location but let us check the work ip from 1 year ago given by rob and the new one and see what we get.

here is the check for his work ip from last year


notice the gps location for his work

and now lets try one of the 62 ips from this year


he still works at the same place! I didn't think he'd be able to hold a job for a year with so much time spent multing in ST!

I would not have had sent the multi accounts to help TO grab there flag back, and I was not the person that asked you to ask admin for a multi report on ricky so the theory that I could have done this falls a mile short of reality without the proof of the ip's (which is impossible to fake) so with the proof.. it's just ridiculous

I have never hacked anyone including shade, if I had, I wouldn't have asked admin to check to make sure for me!

the reason that the ips are mainly 62 is because shade was using two different internet connections.. his work connection (62) is a variable secured ip, changing every day to minimize risks and his house is a stable ip.. changing every month or so which results in so many 62 ips and only 2 (85,87) ip's. depending on the service provider and user settings ip's could stay the same for months or change every few hours.. his work ip's change alot. his house doesn't . He never checked his multi accounts at work hence why there is no 62 ips for rocky or other multies

now alot of people don't get this so let me clarify my self, this is not about a fight with shade or anyone else.. this is about bringing out the truth! Shade is a cheater. he multi's and there is evident proof of that fact.

so if you all want to go on bashing, defending or arguing without any relevant points, go ahead. it still doesn't change the fact that he is a multi.
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Last edited by Mighty on Mon May 19, 2008 5:43 pm; edited 11 times in total
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mjx1
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 Post Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject:
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if his a multy what are you then mighty?
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Knight of Truth
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 Post Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:10 pm    Post subject:

I'm going to agree but not second mighty on this.

While I do think, Rob has abused his powers sometimes, it doesn't really warrant removing them. I do think the topic in question should be unlocked, though.

(I have not forgotten. http://www.spacetrace.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4896)
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