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SG - shield bug
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SkyFire
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Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 121
Location: Slovenia

 Post Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:49 am    Post subject: SG - shield bug
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SG shield lasts whole battle:

2007-01-30 17:11:46
your fleet 3 fights against the base from XXX at XXX
30.01 17:11:22 - your fleet arrived

yours: 27 ships
class 2:
21 shield generators (0/2, 4 MP)
1 spectre (0/10, 400 MP)
class 3:
4 cruisers (100/100, 60 MP)
class 4:
1 mothership (0/1000, 320 MP)

enemy: 1380 ships
class 1:
1086 fighters (1/1, 1 MP)
17 bounty hunters (0/1, 4 MP)
class 2:
254 destroyers (10/10, 8 MP)
20 retraitors (10/6, 8 MP)
class 3:
3 cruisers (100/100, 60 MP)
class 4:
buildings:
1 intelligence station (0/1, 0 MP)
1 transwarp-network (0/100, 0 MP)
1 research center (0/3500, 0 MP)
1 shipyard (0/3500, 0 MP)
your class 2 vs enemy class 1: V ^
you:
21 shield generators
1 spectre
enemy:
1086 fighters
17 bounty hunters

21 shields generated
1 heavy shock wave detected: destructed 1000 ships

2 fighters vs 1 shield generator
2 fighters vs 1 spectre
19 fighters vs 19 shield generators

losses:
you :
1 shield generator
enemy :
983 fighters
17 bounty hunters
score in this subbattle: 1047
your class 3 vs enemy class 2: V ^
you:
4 cruisers
enemy:
254 destroyers
20 retraitors

3 cruisers vs 3 destroyers
1 cruiser vs 1 retraitor

10 destroyers vs 1 cruiser
18 destroyers vs 2 cruisers
8 destroyers vs 1 cruiser
2 retraitors vs 1 cruiser
2 retraitors vs 2 cruisers

losses:
you :
4 cruisers
enemy :
3 destroyers
1 retraitor
score in this subbattle: -208
your class 4 vs enemy class 3: V ^
you:
1 mothership
enemy:
3 cruisers


3 cruisers vs 1 mothership

losses:
you :
-
enemy :
-
score in this subbattle: 0
your class 4 vs enemy class 4: V ^
you:
1 mothership
enemy:
1 shipyard
1 research center
1 transwarp-network
1 intelligence station



losses:
you :
-
enemy :
-
score in this subbattle: 0
summary:
your losses:
class 2:
1 shield generator
class 3:
4 cruisers

enemy losses:
class 1:
983 fighters
17 bounty hunters
class 2:
3 destroyers
1 retraitor

score: 839



SG shield lasts just for the subbattle:

2007-02-01 23:16:53
your fleet 2 fights against the base from XXX at XXX
01.02 23:16:10 - your fleet arrived

yours: 18 ships
class 2:
15 shield generators (0/2, 4 MP)
1 spectre (0/10, 400 MP)
class 3:
1 cruiser (100/100, 60 MP)
class 4:
1 mothership (0/1000, 320 MP)

enemy: 866 ships
class 1:
616 fighters (1/1, 1 MP)
4 bounty hunters (0/1, 4 MP)
class 2:
217 destroyers (10/10, 8 MP)
class 3:
28 cruisers (100/100, 60 MP)
class 4:
1 mothership (0/1000, 320 MP)
buildings:
1 intelligence station (0/1, 0 MP)
1 transwarp-network (0/100, 0 MP)
1 research center (0/3500, 0 MP)
1 shipyard (0/3500, 0 MP)
your class 2 vs enemy class 1: V ^
you:
15 shield generators
1 spectre
enemy:
616 fighters
4 bounty hunters

5 shields generated
1 heavy shock wave detected: destructed 620 ships

4 fighters vs 4 shield generators
1 fighter vs 1 spectre

losses:
you :
-
enemy :
616 fighters
4 bounty hunters
score in this subbattle: 632
your class 2 vs enemy class 2: V ^
you:
15 shield generators
1 spectre
enemy:
217 destroyers

14 shields generated

15 destroyers vs 15 shield generators
1 destroyer vs 1 spectre

losses:
you :
15 shield generators
1 spectre
enemy :
-
score in this subbattle: -460
your class 3 vs enemy class 3: V ^
you:
1 cruiser
enemy:
28 cruisers

1 cruiser vs 1 cruiser

1 cruiser vs 1 cruiser

losses:
you :
1 cruiser
enemy :
1 cruiser
score in this subbattle: 0
your class 4 vs enemy class 4: V ^
you:
1 mothership
enemy:
1 mothership
1 shipyard
1 research center
1 transwarp-network
1 intelligence station



losses:
you :
-
enemy :
-
score in this subbattle: 0
summary:
your losses:
class 2:
15 shield generators
1 spectre
class 3:
1 cruiser

enemy losses:
class 1:
616 fighters
4 bounty hunters
class 3:
1 cruiser

score: 172


Question: WTH?
Which one is rite and which one is bugged? And could the bug please be repaired.. i don't need any point refunds (if that's customs here).. just a working game
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DavAlan
Admiral
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 778
Location: Palo Alto, California

 Post Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:54 am    Post subject: Perhaps...
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1st battle (orange text)...c1(target) vs. c2 (yours) ...your entire c2 "went under" the shields...removing all your c2 from the battle and from the stack causing a "skip" of the next c2 vs. c2 sub-battle. The "disappeared ships" I assume did not reappear before the start of the next sub-battle???
c2 (target) vs. c3 (yours)...this saved your spectre...unless, (had the c2 vs c2 battle occured) the unlikely event that a retraitor damaged it 1st and an sg got it's turn next...your c2 did not fight his c2 for the above reason so your c3 hit the c2 by default.
While you lost this sub-battle the results were more favorable that losing that spectre

2nd battle (green text)...c1 vs c2...5 of 15 of your c2 went under the shields and the remaining c2 were still there...c2 vs. c2 battle occurred with all of your c2 (note in that battle) the shields were "generated" but none placed on any ships as they were either 1) not damaged or 2) already destroyed.

SG's are btw..probably the hardest ST ship to understand and predict

I once hit a 1200 120 10 1 or so with a 0 40 3 1 (16 destroyers, 24 sg's, 3 cruisers) to read the stack assuming. the c2 would "shield under" from the c1, be present to "block" the c2 off my c3, c3 vs c3 and c4 vs c4.
And I would be left with the ms.
What happened was: the c1 put my c2 "under" the sg's and the target c2 (same as your 1st battle in orange) took out my c3 then then target c3 got my ms ...for near total wipe-out of my fleet...I was left with a stranded 0 32 0 0

A better way to use the spectre is to knock the c2 out of the target stack 1st then hit with a c1 in your fleet, have enough c2 (cheap eagles are best for this) so your spectre wont be early in it's turn on the c3. SG's would merely be additional "fodder" to cover your spectre in this stack as the c3 would definately destroy the c2 that get hit.
And the c2 vs. c3 battle causes the spectre to kill the c1.
Even better, knock out the c2 AND the c3 1st and there should be enough c2 to cover your spectre from a DA (if there is one) during the c4 vs c4 battle. Your spectre then activates from c4 that is not hitting back
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But it also breeds creation
And earthquakes are to a girl's guitar
They are just another good vibration
And tidal waves couldn't save the world
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SkyFire
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Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 121
Location: Slovenia

 Post Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject:
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From the "green" BR:
your class 2 vs enemy class 1: V ^
you:
15 shield generators
1 spectre
enemy:
616 fighters
4 bounty hunters

5 shields generated
1 heavy shock wave detected: destructed 620 ships

4 fighters vs 4 shield generators
1 fighter vs 1 spectre


What interrupted this subbattle? Why didn't the other SGs get shot at and shielded? Puzzling. Btw.. this green battle log is the only case when this occured. I have at least two other "orange" BRs that show the SGs&spectre going for a full cover till the end of the battle.
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iuztheevil
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Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 86

 Post Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:15 pm    Post subject:
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SG's only generate shields around ships that get SHOT. You got EXTREMELY lucky because your specter went off at the beginning of the battle. This was the BEST CASE SCENARIO....You only had 5 ships get shot in this battle, so only 5 shields generated.

The SG is the most unpredictable ship....every time I think I have it figured out, it shows me something new....which is awesome.
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DavAlan
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 778
Location: Palo Alto, California

 Post Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:08 am    Post subject:
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SkyFire wrote:
From the "green" BR:
your class 2 vs enemy class 1: V ^
you:
15 shield generators
1 spectre
enemy:
616 fighters
4 bounty hunters

5 shields generated
1 heavy shock wave detected: destructed 620 ships

4 fighters vs 4 shield generators
1 fighter vs 1 spectre


What interrupted this subbattle? Why didn't the other SGs get shot at and shielded? Puzzling. Btw.. this green battle log is the only case when this occured. I have at least two other "orange" BRs that show the SGs&spectre going for a full cover till the end of the battle.


LMAO YOUR SPECTRE "INTERUPTED" THIS SUB-BATTLE BY KILLING ALL THE TARGETS
5 fighters got to take thier turns before the spectre got it's turn then ... end of sub-battle so, the other 10 sg's never got a turn in that sub-battle.
_________________
"Destruction leads to a very rough road
But it also breeds creation
And earthquakes are to a girl's guitar
They are just another good vibration
And tidal waves couldn't save the world
From Californication"
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlUKcNNmywk
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SkyFire
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Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 121
Location: Slovenia

 Post Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject:
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Ya.. firgured that one out.. but why did the shielded ships return to battle and they ALL fought in the c2vs.c2 battle?

Ermm.. guys.. i think we should RTFM lmao:

shield generator (class 2 ship)
a defense system that detects impacts on your ships. if a ship is not destroyed,
it immediately generates a shield around it.
if the first hit destroyes the ship,
the shield comes too late to save it.
if a ships is protected this way, it is dimensionally displaced and keeps alive
a sub-space carrier wave to the remaining ships nearby (in the same class).
if all other ships in that class are destroyed, it looses the carrier wave, thus it
cannot return to normal space directly.
in that case it will return at the end of battle.


Ok.. now it's all clear.. no buggs at all.. just a tricky ship that i now finaly understand
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DavAlan
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Location: Palo Alto, California

 Post Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject:
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SkyFire wrote:
Ok.. now it's all clear.. no buggs at all.. just a tricky ship that i now finaly understand


The one thing that makes the ST battle engine so much different than the UC / GC battle engine you are used to is that latter does not use any randomization during the process. UC / GC results are predictable right down to the final ship loss / win ratio so much that one can create a battle sim. that will duplicate the results everytime. Before the battle sims came out in UC / GC we used to calculate our win / loss with a basic calculator in about 5 minutes

ST uses randomization and results never are quite identical.
_________________
"Destruction leads to a very rough road
But it also breeds creation
And earthquakes are to a girl's guitar
They are just another good vibration
And tidal waves couldn't save the world
From Californication"
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlUKcNNmywk
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SkyFire
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Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 121
Location: Slovenia

 Post Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject:
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Ya.. i've written a simpla battle sim to calculate the effectiveness of war ministers in UC

Anyway.. i know there's a lot of "randoms" in ST, but don't confuse "random" with "unpredictable". I wanna know what every ship will do in a certain situation - if i don't, the outcome of my battle is truly unpredictable. If there are random elements to take into account, i do that and i get an approximation of the outcome or multiple possibile outcomes.
Everyone keeps saying that the SG is unpredictable. Well it is pretty much predictable, just a little bit more tricky in its nature
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iuztheevil
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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject:
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The SG is predictable, but often it is easy to overlook a possibility and get a very different battle result than you looked for. SG's are an example of a ship with an extremely branched logic tree.

And as for GC/UC....lmfao...does anyone even play those games anymore?!?

I checked the GC forums about six months ago, there were the SAME types of posts....when are we going to get an update....LMFAO...the last "update" was in 1/04.....since then there have been computer crashes, hard drive lock ups, and other various excuses for the lack of updates....and every "tweak" was a feature removed.... So, you will trade totally predictable gameplay for convoluted logic problems that represent battles....it is very liberating and (with the exception of the multi problem) quite fun....

And Dav, we used to calculate win/loss from memory, because once you ran the calcs about 50 times, you tended to remember.... man, I have not thought about the old T-dog days for a while....total domination....
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Sardaukar
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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject:
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actually.. GC just got an update with ships mods getting revamped.. and UC is still very active.. i should know =p


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DavAlan
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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:23 am    Post subject:
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Sardaukar wrote:
actually.. GC just got an update with ships mods getting revamped.. and UC is still very active.. i should know =p
)6


Hmm must have tweaked viral avantages higher again....as if the 100x average pr was not enough no wonder I get the sh*t pounded out of me by viral
_________________
"Destruction leads to a very rough road
But it also breeds creation
And earthquakes are to a girl's guitar
They are just another good vibration
And tidal waves couldn't save the world
From Californication"
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlUKcNNmywk
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Sardaukar
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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:44 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Hmm must have tweaked viral avantages higher again....as if the 100x average pr was not enough no wonder I get the sh*t pounded out of me by viral


actually.. range of borelly and chiron were dropped.. and collective + miner ships were improved... amazing update really.. especially for us terrans as our broadswords and odins can pwn virals now
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